A very well written post there Mark.

I do however believe that some of the eels we catch which are deep hooked will die.
I have in the past been told by the owner of a water that I fished on a club fishin. A water which night fishing was not allowed on. The owner told me that during the week after the club fished his water over a dozen eels turned up dead. This was an organized trip with very experienced eel anglers fishing for the weekend.In deed some of the anglers onthat trip are probably going to read this, as they are regular posters on this forum. On that trip around 20 eels where caught and only a few where deep hooked. None where mistreated by any anglers there. If you want the truth that was a turning point in my love for eel fishing. After all if after we treated the eels (as always ) with the up most respect and some still died. then it was worrying to me.
I do believe you Mark in regards your repeat captures. but how many eels can be positively identified on recapture?? unless there is an unmistakable way. I may have caught the same eel but not that I am aware of. I do know of other anglers who know that they have deffo done so.

I do also know of very respected eel anglers who have told me of times when they have caught an eel which was lip hooked only for it to die in his hands. This also happened to John Sidley.
So mingle its not a north west thing or down to mistreatment as you suggest. One day it may well happen to you. but then again it will go in your freezer wont it?

Can everyone of you say that all the eels that you have caught have never died??
You don't now what happens to the eel when its returned to the water. So its an easier option to feel that they have survived.

I remember seeing an eel caught on the pole. Which was actually foul hooked. There was no stressing of the eel and it was returned to the canal immediately. the poor thing as on the surface within the hour.
We are not at the water 24 7 to be absolutely without doubt that the eels we catch ALL survive.

I do not fish for eels now. It is by choice. there are better anglers then I, that have taken the same step. Phil Smith for one.

I know some of you reading this will be thinking, God this is not the sort of post to be on an eel fishing website. but for me and some others its a truth. I am not sorry if this has pricked a few nerves. But some times the truth hurts.

Tony.

Hang fire on this issue Tony - there are two things you need to do before you start a slanging match.Firstly book an appointment at Specsavers so you can read what I actually wrote on the forum.Secondly you must book yourself in and have a humour bypass operation.I don't wish to personalise this issue with you or Mark but The original point of my debate was the fact that NAC needs as it has to focus its attention on the commercial side of eel netting,the export of eels from the British shores to European markets and the growing trend of eels for the pot from immgrant fiherman in this country.I dont care where you live and it was not a dig at the northwest but a common joke between yorks and lancs - once you get your sense of humour you will be ok.I have and do use eels for bait -very rare and for zander only - but as for your freezer comment - as cold as your humour I think.Mark you make millions of good points and I agree with everything you say - but yet again you spoil yourself with your comments regarding people that choose to eat or use eels for bait.I like the passion of the forum and the debate it generates - but we do live iin a democracy - perhaps I could fish in Iran next year.Finally perhaps we can go down the road of banning any member who does not adhere to your gospel Mark - bit the old up its own arse NAC with size limits on eels caught for eligibility for membership.And Tony I do admire you - I could not even get involved in a debate involving a species I no longer fished for even though your heart is true.I too fished with John Sidley And was part of BEAC put eels back campaign - at a time when the NAC did sod all - and on a final note - john used eels for bait - not often like me - but he did.We can continue this debate or can we all aggree in principle that more or less we are on the same lines.If not and you want make it a personal issue - then pm me or phone.

Fascinating posts from both Tony and Mark Ingle. I can’t see that Tony was starting a slanging match – perhaps it’s mingle who’s had the humour bypass and needs a reversal The problem I have with killing eels for bait has little to do with the NAC or its policies. It is more about the needless destruction of a member of an endangered species for no good reason. There are plenty of non endangered alternatives that are equally effective as pike or zander baits. The myth that eel section is“magic” pike bait is just that – a myth! I can understand why commercial eel fishermen do what they do, as they make a living from it, and I can even understand why people fish for eels for the pot. They are arguably the most tasty fish to eat. I gave up eating eels 4 years ago, but still miss them. But we are talking about a species that is teetering on the brink of extinction, and I think that there is no excuse for killing eels just to use as bait. You will, Mark, I am sure, continue to behave as you see fit, and you point out correctly that we live in a democracy, which is why you can do it, and I can tell you that I think that you are acting irresponsibly. Fortunately, most thinking anglers do respect the eel and appreciate its plight, which is why I don’t waste too much time arguing with the others!

On to eels that die after capture. I asked Phil Smith if he gave up eel fishing because he thought that eels died after capture (he’s a fellow Osprey Group member). He replied that he still eel fishes, and although he feels that some eels may die after capture, he still fishes for them occasionally. You must have got the wrong end of the stick somehow Tony. My repeat captures (a 4.03 and a 5.10) were identified by distinctive markings, identical length and girth and identical weights. They were caught within two weeks of original capture. I also know of 5.2 taken by another angler that I originally caught as a 5.4. I suspect a few more, but cannot be sure. Steve Ricketts once mentioned to me that he felt that his re capture rate was around 10%. His book's out soon, so we will see. Tesch quotes many instances of eel dissected for research that contained the remains of hooks or obvious healed hook damage. His text reports that they were healthy and normal in all other ways. The anecdotal tales of eels dying on capture are few and far between, the Sidley example being the best known. John Davis has just e mailed me to say that he lost a 4 in this way, possibly due to a heart attack. I am sure that this happens, in the same way that we lose other species of fish after capture. I think that we have to accept that a few of the fish that we catch will die, but I am convinced that the eel is very resilient to capture, and with careful handling will survive capture comfortably. Every eel that I have caught has been sacked overnight, or during daylight for a period of several hours, and has emerged fighting fit in the morning, and swam away strongly after unhooking. I still believe that very few eels die after being returned. Sidley told many stories of deeply hooked eels taken home and kept in a tank (or bath!) for long periods with no ill effects.

I would have confidence in Tony’s anecdotal evidence of 12 out of 20 eels found dead after a fish in if Tony had witnessed the corpses. As it was related to him by a fishery owner I think that I will treat it in the same way as all the advice and tales that I have heard from fishery owners over the years. To suggest that 60% of eels caught will die is absurd, and also irresponsible. Perfect ammunition for the antis! I would certainly want to see the evidence of this before I gave up eel fishing. If you think about it, we should certainly not fish for pike, grayling or trout, as they are all far more delicate than the eel, albeit not an endangered species. We will, however, continue to do it because we love angling. I have my own theory as to why eel recaptures are relatively rare (probably wrong as usual) and will write about it for the next mag. Do keep the debate up, however, because it’s much better than football!

Oh Mark this could go on forever and you have really missed the point.I am tired of the whole thing and will for one last time try to explain my original point.Please don't try to paint me as a form of vermin with a black heart and a serial eel killer as I was fishing for eels before you had hairs on your fellar.I will do want I want and as for lacking a sense of humour - well your the first to state that so I will do my best to look into that.The original forum started many moons ago on the sale of eels in shops which will never alter.My original point and still is that eating or using eels for bait is just the tip of a huge iceberg and the main problems lay else where as stated in previous forums.I applaud your values and your work within the NAC - but I don't agree with all your comments.Pop over to the zander websites and see if they agree with your views on eel section as a 'duff; bait.Having caught over 100 double figure zander - its not my most used bait in all honesty - but like any other fish that swims it can be caught and eaten or used as bait.The put eels back campaign by John Sidley and the BEAC rather like the zander and pike was aimed at educating Johny Noddy to return these fish.20 years on it seems that all have been a sucess and from my visits to the Fens and waters up and down the country things have improved.I do not condone any bait suppliers of eels -but realise that in my lifetime you will not change this fact - so target the bigger threats to eel stocks and in time you may win them over.I think Tony offers some very interesting comments regarding eel welfare - and for some time agreed with some of his views on eel deaths.This changed in my youth when I kept several big eels for 5 days on a week session - those were the days and despite deep hooking either survived or shed the hooks.The eels you catch must be very odd looking buggers if you can identify repeats - unless its a puddle and thats up to you - I like to move on.This debate is better than football but according to Saint Mark I am irresponsible - so Iam off zander fishing with my pot of tesco jellied eels,smoke eels from the polish guy down the road and a shit load of eel sections for bait.Happy hunting everyone.

I am actually tagging eels at the moment, all have swam off with no adverse effects. I have also been electrofishing and have never had an eel die on me in ten years. I have had the odd trout die on me and that was down to high temperatures rather than the actual method. In fact this year after catching an eel it proceeded to eat the other fish in the bucket within minutes of capture. i do agree that some may die after capture re john sidley. But then that is the same for all species of animal, who is to say that the deaths were not a result of underlying health problems and capture just added to this, fish get ill as well as humans.As for eels as bait i personally don't do it, commercial eeling as any other business is driven by demand, if there is no demand then there wouldn't be a need to net. Just my opinion.

ive been fishing a water near me for a few years now with a good succsess rate 4 and 5s and the fishery owner has not told me of any eel deaths after i have been on and had a few out,so if the mortality rate is as high as mentioned a number of fish should have shown belly up.

It’s a shame that you’ve tired of the debate, Mark. It’s what forums are for, and it makes people think about issues that affect our fishing. I don’t think that I missed the point-you’re point is that we should focus on banning commercial fishing, as that has the most effect on eel stocks, and that using eels for bait has no effect on eel stocks. I suppose that I should have mentioned that we (NAC) are constantly working with the EA, the AT etc. to adapt and influence the Eel Management Plans and ensure that the eel has a future. Clive Dennison and Tony Jolley are tackling this as well, and the control of commercial eel fishing is part of this activity.

My point is that we can all influence the future of the eel in a small way by not using them as bait. I do not expect every angler to make an effort, but we keep trying to convert them! I did not state that eel section was a “duff” bait. I said that it was not a “magic” bait - a subtle difference! My repeat eel captures were from waters of 16 and 11 acres (hardly puddles)with very small eel populations, and were identified using photographs showing distinctive markings, unusual tail damage and comparisons of length and girth measurements. There may have been more, but these 3 are ones that I am sure of.

I am deeply honoured that you have chosen to award me sainthood. I hope that I will be known as St Mark of Anguilla in future. I had expected to be canonized after death, but am happy to accept it pre mortem! Especially from a self proclaimed veteran eel angler, captor of over 100 figure double zander and modest chap to boot! Must go now, Vespers has just began!

now now mark a saint in your own lifetime thats pushing it a bit,

Saint Salty of course I fully endorse your sainthood it is part of my modest nature.I never tire of debate rather going over old ground.The few eels I use for bait are casualties normally knotted up on feeder rigs while trying to catch bait on the Fens for zander - I don't transport livebait to other venues - that could be another debate infact.So if its people like Neville Fickiling or Joe pike angler using eels for bait my point still remains that it is the tip of the iceberg.I fully agree with all your comments and don't condone the killing of eels for bait or the pot but accept that it happens.I use eel for bait on rare occasions and you used to eat them.You have stopped gorging on eels after vespers and I will only use eels that hang themselves on the fens for bait because they will not survive in any case so utilise it.I look forward to your eel identification guide in the next magazine and more of your wise words on this forum - to be right all the time is a true gift that few possess - you lucky man.Finally nowt to do with this verbal jousting - but anyone have any contacts for the partridge jouhn sidley eel hooks???????.Come on saint salty can't your contacts with a higher level help me out on this one.

I think he may be winding me up, Angry, but I'm not sure I live in hope, though, and am brushing up my technique for blessing my flock. I will be selling saintly artefacts at the winter social - signed pics of me charming eels from the water and turning eel blood into wine. The Jockey has even asked for my forgiveness for his disgraceful behaviour at the Manor fish in, but I don't think my newly acquired status will allow me to do that. I still can't work out how he managed to lure that barmaid into his bivvy

Well Mark, I'm glad that you didn't explain all that in your previous posts, as we wouldn't have had nearly so much fun I did hear a voice last night, but it just kept saying something like " do you think that drinking 3 cans of beer and half a bottle of wine on a wednesday night is normal? - are you an alchoholic?" It did not mention partridge hooks, and I didn't dare ask it if it knew where you might get some. Just thank your lucky stars that you've only got me moaning at you, and not 'er indoors! Why bother with special hooks for eels anyway - just use your feeder rig Finally, I am seldom right, just opinionated and persistent. Off eel fishing now, so hopefully the only voice I hear tonight will belong to a delkim.

Mark

I have heard another voice (well, via e mail). This was received from a reformed sinner this morning. This saint business is obviously the way to go. I feel very powerful now


"Hi Mark
You can tell mingle that after holding a confessional, with a once sinful secretive pike-fisher of Derby, you can acquire some of those said hooks (I have a few in my possession) if he recants his wicked sinful ways and takes a pilgrimage to Winchester Cathedral and grovels to the good St Isaak of Walton, that he will forever take upon himself a vow to never, ever use again an eel for pike or scrawny zander, he will be sent not one, but two shiny never been used John Sidley eel hooks."

If you agree to the terms then I suggest that you contact John Davis (for it is he!)

I feel blessed to be in such a holy environment and that you have pierced my evil black heart.I feel a white light of goodness flowing over me that I thought was only possible in the great world of Disney.For a sinner such as I am to be welcomed into the holy breatheren of slime is a great honour.I shall try the sidley hooks on feeder rigs - for I shall always walk in the path of the great Saint Salty.Would I a poor yorkshireman resort to wind ups??????????
Well - I am hurt and upset by the accusations.I wish you luck in your future fishings as for me I am looking to cast the evils of this world and take holy orders to serve in the temple of Salt.

Saint Salty.
Just on to the subject of Phil.
I had asked him to present a slide show for the NAC in around 2003 (I think).
he declined with respect and did say he no longer fished for eels. believing as I thought he said he was not happy thinking of the potential problems with deep hooking.
Now in reflection. It is possible that his view was an old one and his rigs may have changed to prevent deep hooking.
I still remember him telling me about his time on Belvide.
I can see as well that the fishery owner could have also been trying to put me off booking his lake for a 3rd NAC trip. who knows. also a valid point from Malc as well. as I know his water quite well, If its the same one.
The deep hooking aspect was the reason behind my thoughts on circle hooks back in 2004. as I clutched for straws to keep me eel fishing. Along with the demanding problems year on year within the NAC at that time. my passion was sapped.

If some one can provide a rig which will hook in the lips every time an eel takes it, I would give it a try. As I still miss eel fishing.I have looked at Woodys stuff and used them in their development stages. But fishing Locked up was not for me. or was I just being lazy at the time?
I did say in my last year in the NAC that I was an angler who associates with eel anglers but no longer an eel angler my self.

Tony

Phil did mention that he was concerned about the deep hooking issues, but not enough to stop fisuhing for them. I don't think he's found a rig that will prevent this. Like you, I would like a rig that resulted in 100% lip hooking, but I think that the way in which eels feeds, and their tendency to "play" with baits once pressure is applied to a water makes any form of self hooking or bolt rig unreliable, and will reduce hook ups, resulting in missed takes. Neither, like you, do I want to fish in the carp style, where the fish hang themselves. After experimenting with all sorts of rigs asdapted from my carp days, I have now settled on a low resistance setup using a big lead (3oz), very short rigid hooklink, and fishing the baits off the back of a small barbless hook (sizes 6-8). I've stopped using crushed barbs as they don't come out easily enough, and now buy barbless. I think that the size of hook is unlikely to cause much internal damage, and the complete lack of a barb makes the hook easy to dislodge. I have xperienced very few deeply hooked eels this year, mainly due to fishing very near to the rods, and investigating every beep immediately. I've had a 4.6 and a 5.1 touch legering following one solitary bleep, and striking when I feel the fish take. I can't be sure that these small indications would not have turned into runs if left, but I am convinced that the eels in two of the waters I fish a lot now "know" that baits are dangerous, and muck about with them, often never taking the bait properly.

Hi Mark,
can you send me a drawing of your rig? It sounds more like the way I like to fish. I do like float fishing for eels as well.